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	<title>Comments on: Grokking the Goatberg</title>
	<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/</link>
	<description>Open Source, Open Standards</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 00:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.11</generator>

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		<title>by: Norm Fox</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-482</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 18:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-482</guid>
					<description>It really boils down to being able to differentiate between helpful constructive criticism and FUD.  While the excerpt from Mossberg isn’t necessarily helpful (unless he later went into detail about why non-technical users should avoid Linux, it is far from FUD.  First it should be pointed out that he said “non-technical” as opposed to say “anyone who doesn’t have a degree in Computer Science”.  Yes there are plenty of helpful user forums out there, but if you aren’t a “technical user” when you post your first question, you will be by the time you get your problem solved.  Point in case any fix that requires opening a terminal should by definition be considered technical.  I’ve been happily running Suse as a desktop environment at home (alongside XP and OSX) for the last three years, but I’ve had my fair share of headaches and have had to compile from source and hand edit config files to get around them.  

I recently installed Ubuntu on an old box just to se what all the hype was about, and I’ll have to say having installed 3 other flavors of Linux (I tried Debian and Fedora, before deciding on Suse back when I first decided to give Linux a try) and XP from scratch before, that Ubuntu was by far the easiest and least technical of them all.  The tutorials to get Ubuntu to play common media files were on par with those for Suse and fairly straight forward, but still that definitely starts to approach technical.  So I’d say it’s a stretch to claim that Ubuntu (or any linux distro) has “out of the box media playing capabilities.  Yes I realize that’s for solid legal reasons and it does just fine with open source CODECs, but most of us don’t have and our entire music collection in .ogg so we have to jump through that hoop.  My big beef with Ubuntu came when I attempted to add a Samba share.  Using the “Share Folders” GUI was simple enough, but when I went to access the share from a Windows box I was prompted for a password.  I tried my Ubuntu login which failed.  I went back to Ubuntu and attempted to find a GUI to managed Samba users and found nothing.  Ubuntu help just pointed me to the Samba manual (talk about technical).  I went to Google and found several forum posts on the subject all of which involved hand editing smb.conf, which of course involved going to the command line, because there was no GUI to run gedit as root.  My initial impression of Ubuntu as compared to Suse is easier to install harder to manage / configure.

The biggest hurdle I see to Linux for general home use is setting up a simple home network.  The interface in Ubuntu is simple and great, unfortunately it doesn’t seem to work (at least not reliably).  Suse’s works but is definitely technical and requires going through multiple interfaces.  Neither OS’s GUI seems to be able to add a network share to fstab so that it’s mounted on startup; a requirement if say you want Amarok to manage music files stored on another box. (And it took over a month of forum posting to figure out how to get Suse to do it without putting the host on a static IP).  

Oh and I can’t stand Evolution either, I’d really love to see Mozilla write a nicer address book app and then bundle it with Thunderbird and Sunbird in one “organizer” package.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It really boils down to being able to differentiate between helpful constructive criticism and FUD.  While the excerpt from Mossberg isn’t necessarily helpful (unless he later went into detail about why non-technical users should avoid Linux, it is far from FUD.  First it should be pointed out that he said “non-technical” as opposed to say “anyone who doesn’t have a degree in Computer Science”.  Yes there are plenty of helpful user forums out there, but if you aren’t a “technical user” when you post your first question, you will be by the time you get your problem solved.  Point in case any fix that requires opening a terminal should by definition be considered technical.  I’ve been happily running Suse as a desktop environment at home (alongside XP and OSX) for the last three years, but I’ve had my fair share of headaches and have had to compile from source and hand edit config files to get around them.  </p>
<p>I recently installed Ubuntu on an old box just to se what all the hype was about, and I’ll have to say having installed 3 other flavors of Linux (I tried Debian and Fedora, before deciding on Suse back when I first decided to give Linux a try) and XP from scratch before, that Ubuntu was by far the easiest and least technical of them all.  The tutorials to get Ubuntu to play common media files were on par with those for Suse and fairly straight forward, but still that definitely starts to approach technical.  So I’d say it’s a stretch to claim that Ubuntu (or any linux distro) has “out of the box media playing capabilities.  Yes I realize that’s for solid legal reasons and it does just fine with open source CODECs, but most of us don’t have and our entire music collection in .ogg so we have to jump through that hoop.  My big beef with Ubuntu came when I attempted to add a Samba share.  Using the “Share Folders” GUI was simple enough, but when I went to access the share from a Windows box I was prompted for a password.  I tried my Ubuntu login which failed.  I went back to Ubuntu and attempted to find a GUI to managed Samba users and found nothing.  Ubuntu help just pointed me to the Samba manual (talk about technical).  I went to Google and found several forum posts on the subject all of which involved hand editing smb.conf, which of course involved going to the command line, because there was no GUI to run gedit as root.  My initial impression of Ubuntu as compared to Suse is easier to install harder to manage / configure.</p>
<p>The biggest hurdle I see to Linux for general home use is setting up a simple home network.  The interface in Ubuntu is simple and great, unfortunately it doesn’t seem to work (at least not reliably).  Suse’s works but is definitely technical and requires going through multiple interfaces.  Neither OS’s GUI seems to be able to add a network share to fstab so that it’s mounted on startup; a requirement if say you want Amarok to manage music files stored on another box. (And it took over a month of forum posting to figure out how to get Suse to do it without putting the host on a static IP).  </p>
<p>Oh and I can’t stand Evolution either, I’d really love to see Mozilla write a nicer address book app and then bundle it with Thunderbird and Sunbird in one “organizer” package.
</p>
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		<title>by: david Ford</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-481</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 15:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-481</guid>
					<description>As a grandfather who came into *nix through Coherent, I agree with most of the comments here - especially those that say Evolution is hopeless.
Every time I try to use it it wipes out my todo list and clears my calendar files.
A decent and reliable Outlook-type mail/calendar/task program would be the killer app for personal and corporate users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a grandfather who came into *nix through Coherent, I agree with most of the comments here - especially those that say Evolution is hopeless.<br />
Every time I try to use it it wipes out my todo list and clears my calendar files.<br />
A decent and reliable Outlook-type mail/calendar/task program would be the killer app for personal and corporate users.
</p>
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		<title>by: Joe Klemmer</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-480</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 00:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-480</guid>
					<description>Here's a quick rundown of my comments...

On one hand, I loved OS/2, too.  I bailed when IBM came out with those psychedelic "Warp" commercials absolutely blowing the marketing potential of that word.  My brother was a Team OS/2 member and did all that stuff.  I started running Linux in 1991 but just for learning and hacking.  OS/2 was my desktop.

On the other hand, as for mothers and in-laws and such, check out &lt;a href="http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6562" rel="nofollow"&gt;Interview with a Grandmother&lt;/a&gt; on Linux Journal.  There are some other articles at &lt;a href="http://www.webtrek.com/joe/articles/" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.webtrek.com/joe/articles&lt;/a&gt; if you're curious.

On the gripping hand, the people who have the most problems with Linux in todays world are the Windows Power Users.  Techies have no problems with Linux as a desktop (I've been using it exclusively since 1993 or '94).  Grandma and Aunt Tilly users can get systems all preconfigured so that they're basically plug in and go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a quick rundown of my comments&#8230;</p>
<p>On one hand, I loved OS/2, too.  I bailed when IBM came out with those psychedelic &#8220;Warp&#8221; commercials absolutely blowing the marketing potential of that word.  My brother was a Team OS/2 member and did all that stuff.  I started running Linux in 1991 but just for learning and hacking.  OS/2 was my desktop.</p>
<p>On the other hand, as for mothers and in-laws and such, check out <a href="http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6562" rel="nofollow">Interview with a Grandmother</a> on Linux Journal.  There are some other articles at <a href="http://www.webtrek.com/joe/articles/" rel="nofollow">http://www.webtrek.com/joe/articles</a> if you&#8217;re curious.</p>
<p>On the gripping hand, the people who have the most problems with Linux in todays world are the Windows Power Users.  Techies have no problems with Linux as a desktop (I&#8217;ve been using it exclusively since 1993 or &#8216;94).  Grandma and Aunt Tilly users can get systems all preconfigured so that they&#8217;re basically plug in and go.
</p>
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		<title>by: c1a9r5t4er</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-479</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-479</guid>
					<description>I, too, was a user of the elegant OS/2, with the Presentation Manager in 1995 that was more than Win XP in 2000.  But what success could IBM have marketing OS/2 with such slogans as: "OS/2; it'll obliterate your software!".  I referred to MS as the '800 lb. marketing gorilla' and IBM as 'technological excellence, but couldn't market watertight doors to the submarine fleet if they were sole-source provider' when it came to selling OS/2 to individual users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, too, was a user of the elegant OS/2, with the Presentation Manager in 1995 that was more than Win XP in 2000.  But what success could IBM have marketing OS/2 with such slogans as: &#8220;OS/2; it&#8217;ll obliterate your software!&#8221;.  I referred to MS as the &#8216;800 lb. marketing gorilla&#8217; and IBM as &#8216;technological excellence, but couldn&#8217;t market watertight doors to the submarine fleet if they were sole-source provider&#8217; when it came to selling OS/2 to individual users.
</p>
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		<title>by: Patrick Berry</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-478</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-478</guid>
					<description>Folks, I have trouble trying to find a more diehard advocate than myself, but, I find that you are all correct!

In the FOSS, GNU/Linux, *BSD, world, each user is allowed and permitted to find and use the tool that works best for their purpose, on their machine, at the moment it is needed.

Most of us run multiple machines, in different OSes, to get work done fast and secure.  

I find that all the children of K-12 grades in the schools I support, take to FedoraCore7, Mepis, and PCLinuxOS, immediately.  

None of the "issues" noted by Mr. Mossberg exist for the average student, teacher, or administrator, or the parents who get free LiveCDroms.

Perhaps Mr. Mossberg's mother is not able to function in a computer environment at all and learn new tricks, and Mr. Mossberg has no clue that there are free help forums, Linux Users Groups, and other free services in his community.

Someone stated that computers are the most complex household appliance man has ever owned.

Folks, if it is a new, different, most complicated machine, then you might have to invest some time in learning it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks, I have trouble trying to find a more diehard advocate than myself, but, I find that you are all correct!</p>
<p>In the FOSS, GNU/Linux, *BSD, world, each user is allowed and permitted to find and use the tool that works best for their purpose, on their machine, at the moment it is needed.</p>
<p>Most of us run multiple machines, in different OSes, to get work done fast and secure.  </p>
<p>I find that all the children of K-12 grades in the schools I support, take to FedoraCore7, Mepis, and PCLinuxOS, immediately.  </p>
<p>None of the &#8220;issues&#8221; noted by Mr. Mossberg exist for the average student, teacher, or administrator, or the parents who get free LiveCDroms.</p>
<p>Perhaps Mr. Mossberg&#8217;s mother is not able to function in a computer environment at all and learn new tricks, and Mr. Mossberg has no clue that there are free help forums, Linux Users Groups, and other free services in his community.</p>
<p>Someone stated that computers are the most complex household appliance man has ever owned.</p>
<p>Folks, if it is a new, different, most complicated machine, then you might have to invest some time in learning it!
</p>
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		<title>by: Andrej Ricnik</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-477</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-477</guid>
					<description>"But Exchange could be beat at it’s own game."

John, what do you mean?  Other tools could rape RFC's standards more efficiently? :}  Like changing the separator between e-Mail addresses and embracing non-permissible hostnames?  Mangling headers of received e-Mail more effectively?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But Exchange could be beat at it’s own game.&#8221;</p>
<p>John, what do you mean?  Other tools could rape RFC&#8217;s standards more efficiently? :}  Like changing the separator between e-Mail addresses and embracing non-permissible hostnames?  Mangling headers of received e-Mail more effectively?
</p>
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		<title>by: Andrej Ricnik</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-475</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-475</guid>
					<description>"Yes, back in the early 90's, I was one of those "Team OS/2" guys. You know, one of those seriously rabid and hyper-energetic geeky types that did demos at Egghead Software, user groups, and anywhere and anyone we could get the system in front of as part of a volunteer grassroots marketing strategy. Why did we do it? Because we loved the system so much and wanted to get as many people using it as possible."
Ah yes ... TeamOS/2 Germany, #155 :}

I still think that as far as Gooey goes the WPS was IT.  Nothing else ever came close to its functionality.



"I love linux, but I can’t imagine the nightmare it would be to install it for my mother-in-law that calls every three months because she can’t remember how to attach an email."

Honestly?  How odd - since I replaced the Win2K
install on my mother-in-laws PC with Slackware 2 years ago the number of support calls has dropped to about a quarter of the initial rate, and my maintenance work is done remotely, and takes up a twentieth of the time ever since ... 



Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Yes, back in the early 90&#8217;s, I was one of those &#8220;Team OS/2&#8243; guys. You know, one of those seriously rabid and hyper-energetic geeky types that did demos at Egghead Software, user groups, and anywhere and anyone we could get the system in front of as part of a volunteer grassroots marketing strategy. Why did we do it? Because we loved the system so much and wanted to get as many people using it as possible.&#8221;<br />
Ah yes &#8230; TeamOS/2 Germany, #155 :}</p>
<p>I still think that as far as Gooey goes the WPS was IT.  Nothing else ever came close to its functionality.</p>
<p>&#8220;I love linux, but I can’t imagine the nightmare it would be to install it for my mother-in-law that calls every three months because she can’t remember how to attach an email.&#8221;</p>
<p>Honestly?  How odd - since I replaced the Win2K<br />
install on my mother-in-laws PC with Slackware 2 years ago the number of support calls has dropped to about a quarter of the initial rate, and my maintenance work is done remotely, and takes up a twentieth of the time ever since &#8230; </p>
<p>Cheers
</p>
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		<title>by: hhemken</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-470</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 16:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-470</guid>
					<description>Mossberg did not slam Linux, so let's not get our panties all twisted up. The fact that he said "for now" indicates that he is aware that the time when Ubuntu is ready for the mass market is fast approaching. I agree with the general notion that there are still several important issues that need to be dealt with, though. 

Nevertheless the complaint that Grandma and Aunt Tilley can't use it is obsolete. It is in the past. Perhaps they can't be power users yet, they probably can't be corporate desktop users yet, they can't diagnose and fix some common problems, but email, web browsing, typical office suite usage, and many other mainstream activities are perfectly viable now. Installing Ubuntu is by no means out of their league either.

My teenage non-geek daughter swapped Vista for Ubuntu on her laptop months ago. After an annoying issue with headphones was resolved, she is quite happy. She also is used to switching among her Linux laptop, some Win2K and WinXP boxes at home, and a variety of Windows and Macs at school, each with preferred activities. 

We should distance ourselves from the idea that OSs are like religions, and you belong to just one in contraposition to all others. Computer usage isn't like that at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mossberg did not slam Linux, so let&#8217;s not get our panties all twisted up. The fact that he said &#8220;for now&#8221; indicates that he is aware that the time when Ubuntu is ready for the mass market is fast approaching. I agree with the general notion that there are still several important issues that need to be dealt with, though. </p>
<p>Nevertheless the complaint that Grandma and Aunt Tilley can&#8217;t use it is obsolete. It is in the past. Perhaps they can&#8217;t be power users yet, they probably can&#8217;t be corporate desktop users yet, they can&#8217;t diagnose and fix some common problems, but email, web browsing, typical office suite usage, and many other mainstream activities are perfectly viable now. Installing Ubuntu is by no means out of their league either.</p>
<p>My teenage non-geek daughter swapped Vista for Ubuntu on her laptop months ago. After an annoying issue with headphones was resolved, she is quite happy. She also is used to switching among her Linux laptop, some Win2K and WinXP boxes at home, and a variety of Windows and Macs at school, each with preferred activities. </p>
<p>We should distance ourselves from the idea that OSs are like religions, and you belong to just one in contraposition to all others. Computer usage isn&#8217;t like that at all.
</p>
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		<title>by: john mcginnis</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-467</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-467</guid>
					<description>Mossberg is right in the sense that Linux has to learn to interoperate a bit better. Mail being the glaring example. Both Evolution and Chandler have their faults. My biggest complaint is they both try to be Exchange clones while not offering anything better. (Fact they both lack features Exchange users love.)

FOSS probably ought to consider doing Exchange one better while still being an IMAP compliant tool. A lot could be learned by looking at several CMS tools like PLOne before diving in though. But Exchange could be beat at it's own game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mossberg is right in the sense that Linux has to learn to interoperate a bit better. Mail being the glaring example. Both Evolution and Chandler have their faults. My biggest complaint is they both try to be Exchange clones while not offering anything better. (Fact they both lack features Exchange users love.)</p>
<p>FOSS probably ought to consider doing Exchange one better while still being an IMAP compliant tool. A lot could be learned by looking at several CMS tools like PLOne before diving in though. But Exchange could be beat at it&#8217;s own game.
</p>
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		<title>by: john mcginnis</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-465</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4138/#comment-465</guid>
					<description>Levi, have to differ Sir. I converted my Dad over to Kbuntu Linux 6 months ago after him fighting updates and security hassles with WinXP which even I agree is a very stable platform. Taught him how to use equivalent tools like OpenOffice, Kontact, Firefox. The hardest conversion was his genealogy programs. 

In the space of a week he was pretty much familiar with the tools. I now can sys admin the box remotely. Several scripts are used to do a local tar of the critical files. Son version is kept local and copied to my home server. All father, grandfather backups I keep on the server. So far we have save $$ for not having to have some Geek do a XP security fix. 

Life is good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Levi, have to differ Sir. I converted my Dad over to Kbuntu Linux 6 months ago after him fighting updates and security hassles with WinXP which even I agree is a very stable platform. Taught him how to use equivalent tools like OpenOffice, Kontact, Firefox. The hardest conversion was his genealogy programs. </p>
<p>In the space of a week he was pretty much familiar with the tools. I now can sys admin the box remotely. Several scripts are used to do a local tar of the critical files. Son version is kept local and copied to my home server. All father, grandfather backups I keep on the server. So far we have save $$ for not having to have some Geek do a XP security fix. </p>
<p>Life is good.
</p>
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