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	<title>Comments on: ZFS on FUSE</title>
	<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/</link>
	<description>Open Source, Open Standards</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.11</generator>

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		<title>by: mattwillsher</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1402</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1402</guid>
					<description>Bill, you seem to be missing a key point of ZFS - the 'I' in RAID. ZFS is inexpensive. All the systems you mention, sure they've done it before and often better, but they cost $$$.

ZFS comes with the OS at no additional charge. It offers some of the benefits of technology that belonged in the high end and enterprise markets to low and mid range users.  Sure, some of the technologies are available in other file systems for the lower end market but ZFS brings them together and gives a pretty clean interface for managing what is underneath a relatively complex system.

It's ideal where money is tight, knowledge is limited and performance isn't a driving force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, you seem to be missing a key point of ZFS - the &#8216;I&#8217; in RAID. ZFS is inexpensive. All the systems you mention, sure they&#8217;ve done it before and often better, but they cost $$$.</p>
<p>ZFS comes with the OS at no additional charge. It offers some of the benefits of technology that belonged in the high end and enterprise markets to low and mid range users.  Sure, some of the technologies are available in other file systems for the lower end market but ZFS brings them together and gives a pretty clean interface for managing what is underneath a relatively complex system.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s ideal where money is tight, knowledge is limited and performance isn&#8217;t a driving force.
</p>
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		<title>by: Bill Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1401</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 06:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1401</guid>
					<description>Oh, dear - I see that we've got one of those victims of the unjustified hype that I was referring to right here - but he doesn't seem to have understood my own post (though he seems to have been responding to it).

In particular, not only did I note ZFS's marginally superior detection of otherwise undetectable errors (which are orders of magnitude less common than detectable but uncorrectable errors - in the absence of scrubbing the primary cause of data loss in high-density arrays when a rebuild is required), but I also mentioned that WAFL had comparable integrity-checking mechanisms (and, incidentally, it had them before ZFS did).  Leaving aside the fact that IBM's i-series (previously AS/400, nee System 38) systems have included supplementary data-integrity checksums for decades (as have high-end block-storage devices like EMC's Symmetrix):  these are also comparably capable of catching uncorrected and even undetected bit-rot on a disk, though less capable of detecting wild or lost writes.

Thus the ZFS developers reveal only their own ignorance when stating that no external storage systems provide comparable data integrity - and in general the acm article cited reads more like Sun marketing literature than like a serious journal submission (not to mention having been conducted by a Sun moderator...).

- bill</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, dear - I see that we&#8217;ve got one of those victims of the unjustified hype that I was referring to right here - but he doesn&#8217;t seem to have understood my own post (though he seems to have been responding to it).</p>
<p>In particular, not only did I note ZFS&#8217;s marginally superior detection of otherwise undetectable errors (which are orders of magnitude less common than detectable but uncorrectable errors - in the absence of scrubbing the primary cause of data loss in high-density arrays when a rebuild is required), but I also mentioned that WAFL had comparable integrity-checking mechanisms (and, incidentally, it had them before ZFS did).  Leaving aside the fact that IBM&#8217;s i-series (previously AS/400, nee System 38) systems have included supplementary data-integrity checksums for decades (as have high-end block-storage devices like EMC&#8217;s Symmetrix):  these are also comparably capable of catching uncorrected and even undetected bit-rot on a disk, though less capable of detecting wild or lost writes.</p>
<p>Thus the ZFS developers reveal only their own ignorance when stating that no external storage systems provide comparable data integrity - and in general the acm article cited reads more like Sun marketing literature than like a serious journal submission (not to mention having been conducted by a Sun moderator&#8230;).</p>
<p>- bill
</p>
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		<title>by: sfsetse</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1394</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1394</guid>
					<description>In the step where you created your pool, you used the partition /dev/sda1 rather than the full drive /dev/sda. If ZFS for Linux ever escapes the FUSE layer, this usage is sub-optimal as ZFS understands when it has full use of the drive, and will adjust its caching and write behaviors accordingly. Basically, it knows that when the full write path to the drive is under its control, it can intelligently reorder the write packets to make optimal use of the bandwidth when sending packets to the drive so that head movement is minimized and such. This is not possible when a partition is used.

Change:
$ zpool create mypool /dev/sda1

To:
$ zpool create mypool /dev/sda

- kate</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the step where you created your pool, you used the partition /dev/sda1 rather than the full drive /dev/sda. If ZFS for Linux ever escapes the FUSE layer, this usage is sub-optimal as ZFS understands when it has full use of the drive, and will adjust its caching and write behaviors accordingly. Basically, it knows that when the full write path to the drive is under its control, it can intelligently reorder the write packets to make optimal use of the bandwidth when sending packets to the drive so that head movement is minimized and such. This is not possible when a partition is used.</p>
<p>Change:<br />
$ zpool create mypool /dev/sda1</p>
<p>To:<br />
$ zpool create mypool /dev/sda</p>
<p>- kate
</p>
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		<title>by: kebabbert</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1288</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1288</guid>
					<description>For those of you who says ZFS is nothing new, please read this article discussing the future of file systems:

http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&#38;pa=showpage&#38;pid=504

They say things like, a modern hard drive always devote 20% of its capacity to error correcting codes. Some of the errors cant even be detected nor corrected. And the larger the drives, more causes of silent data corruptions will occur. Unless you use ZFS of course, which fixes all these problems.






The link above is copied from this Linux user who tries out ZFS (from slashdot) for his reliable home file server:

http://breden.org.uk/2008/03/02/home-fileserver-i%e2%80%99ll-use-zfs/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those of you who says ZFS is nothing new, please read this article discussing the future of file systems:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&amp;pa=showpage&amp;pid=504" rel="nofollow">http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&amp;pa=showpage&amp;pid=504</a></p>
<p>They say things like, a modern hard drive always devote 20% of its capacity to error correcting codes. Some of the errors cant even be detected nor corrected. And the larger the drives, more causes of silent data corruptions will occur. Unless you use ZFS of course, which fixes all these problems.</p>
<p>The link above is copied from this Linux user who tries out ZFS (from slashdot) for his reliable home file server:</p>
<p><a href="http://breden.org.uk/2008/03/02/home-fileserver-i%e2%80%99ll-use-zfs/" rel="nofollow">http://breden.org.uk/2008/03/02/home-fileserver-i%e2%80%99ll-use-zfs/</a>
</p>
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		<title>by: Bill Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1256</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1256</guid>
					<description>Whether many of ZFS's features qualify as 'revolutionary' (or even 'advanced') is subject to debate:

1.  Pooled storage while a good idea is hardly a new one, nor is ZFS's implementation nearly as automated as it might be (e.g., RAID groups still have to be defined manually, disk by disk - just as with a conventional LVM).

2.  RAID-Z might more reasonably be described as 'brain-damaged', given that it has dramatically *more* overhead than conventional RAID-5:  every small write operation hits every disk in the stripe (rather than writes to just two of the disks after reading them - with at least one of the reads often satisfied in cache), and (even worse) every small *read* operation hits all but one of the disks in the stripe.

3.  'Always consistent disk space' has been available in many file systems - e.g., VxFS, XFS, JFS, NTFS, WAFL - since the early '90s, the last of which is a copy-on-write implementation (the others use a transaction log to protect internal integrity, which has advantages in minimizing fragmentation in files which are updated at fine grain but may be read in bulk - especially since last I knew ZFS had no defragmenter).

4.  Disk scrubbing has been available in Linux for years - and it's analogous to RAM scrubbing, not to ECC (it only detects errors, allowing some other mechanism to correct them if sufficient redundancy exists to do so).  ZFS's additional internal checksums can (like similar checksums in NetApp's WAFL) catch some errors that conventional scrubbing can't - perhaps improving the 99.99% of otherwise undetected errors that conventional scrubbing would catch to 99.999% (yes, some people actually need this last decimal place of reassurance, but probably not very many).

5.  Snapshots are relatively old hat by now (thanks to NetApp's leading the way 15 years ago).  Clones are more interesting, but arguably far less important.

6.  Built-in compression has been part of NTFS since one of the early NT releases, and standard (though layered) compression on commodity platforms dates back to Microsoft DOS in the '80s.  Given storage prices these days, far fewer people bother using it than used to (not that it isn't nice to have for special needs).

I really applaud Sun's initiative in what has otherwise been a sadly-neglected area of corporate system development, but am less happy about the degree of hype ("ZFS - The Last Word In File Systems" being particularly notable) in which ZFS has been wrapped for public consumption.  So I tend to comment upon the latter when it happens to cross my path.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether many of ZFS&#8217;s features qualify as &#8216;revolutionary&#8217; (or even &#8216;advanced&#8217;) is subject to debate:</p>
<p>1.  Pooled storage while a good idea is hardly a new one, nor is ZFS&#8217;s implementation nearly as automated as it might be (e.g., RAID groups still have to be defined manually, disk by disk - just as with a conventional LVM).</p>
<p>2.  RAID-Z might more reasonably be described as &#8216;brain-damaged&#8217;, given that it has dramatically *more* overhead than conventional RAID-5:  every small write operation hits every disk in the stripe (rather than writes to just two of the disks after reading them - with at least one of the reads often satisfied in cache), and (even worse) every small *read* operation hits all but one of the disks in the stripe.</p>
<p>3.  &#8216;Always consistent disk space&#8217; has been available in many file systems - e.g., VxFS, XFS, JFS, NTFS, WAFL - since the early &#8217;90s, the last of which is a copy-on-write implementation (the others use a transaction log to protect internal integrity, which has advantages in minimizing fragmentation in files which are updated at fine grain but may be read in bulk - especially since last I knew ZFS had no defragmenter).</p>
<p>4.  Disk scrubbing has been available in Linux for years - and it&#8217;s analogous to RAM scrubbing, not to ECC (it only detects errors, allowing some other mechanism to correct them if sufficient redundancy exists to do so).  ZFS&#8217;s additional internal checksums can (like similar checksums in NetApp&#8217;s WAFL) catch some errors that conventional scrubbing can&#8217;t - perhaps improving the 99.99% of otherwise undetected errors that conventional scrubbing would catch to 99.999% (yes, some people actually need this last decimal place of reassurance, but probably not very many).</p>
<p>5.  Snapshots are relatively old hat by now (thanks to NetApp&#8217;s leading the way 15 years ago).  Clones are more interesting, but arguably far less important.</p>
<p>6.  Built-in compression has been part of NTFS since one of the early NT releases, and standard (though layered) compression on commodity platforms dates back to Microsoft DOS in the &#8217;80s.  Given storage prices these days, far fewer people bother using it than used to (not that it isn&#8217;t nice to have for special needs).</p>
<p>I really applaud Sun&#8217;s initiative in what has otherwise been a sadly-neglected area of corporate system development, but am less happy about the degree of hype (&#8221;ZFS - The Last Word In File Systems&#8221; being particularly notable) in which ZFS has been wrapped for public consumption.  So I tend to comment upon the latter when it happens to cross my path.
</p>
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		<title>by: Andrew Webber</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1244</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/6371/#comment-1244</guid>
					<description>I've been using this on a CentOS 5.2 system for about six months.  I'm running kernel supported ZFS on a Mac Pro serving my gigs of personal data.  The ZFS on FUSE filesystem runs on a big usb drive on the CentOS system in a different state.  Nightly rsyncs and I have a geographically separate backup complete with nightly ZFS snapshots.  I find the ZFS snapshot feature invaluable, making sure that I don't accidentally delete all of my important data.

One place where I disagree with this article though is how to install ZFS on FUSE.  If you look at his blog site (http://zfs-on-fuse.blogspot.com/), you'll see that he recommends running the latest code out of the mercurial trunk.  That's what I've been doing and I haven't had any issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been using this on a CentOS 5.2 system for about six months.  I&#8217;m running kernel supported ZFS on a Mac Pro serving my gigs of personal data.  The ZFS on FUSE filesystem runs on a big usb drive on the CentOS system in a different state.  Nightly rsyncs and I have a geographically separate backup complete with nightly ZFS snapshots.  I find the ZFS snapshot feature invaluable, making sure that I don&#8217;t accidentally delete all of my important data.</p>
<p>One place where I disagree with this article though is how to install ZFS on FUSE.  If you look at his blog site (http://zfs-on-fuse.blogspot.com/), you&#8217;ll see that he recommends running the latest code out of the mercurial trunk.  That&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve been doing and I haven&#8217;t had any issues.
</p>
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