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	<title>Comments on: Introduction to SMART</title>
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	<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/</link>
	<description>Open Source, Open Standards</description>
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		<title>By: laray</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8291</link>
		<dc:creator>laray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8291</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;\&quot;Google agrees with the common view that failure rates are known to be highly correlated with drive models, manufacturers, and age. However, when they normalized the SMART data by the drive model, none of the conclusions changed.\&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sooo -  now list the manufactures that had high failures and complete the information delivery for the article.  This would be important since the SMART parameters themselves have been determined (by Google) to be useless!
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>\&#8221;Google agrees with the common view that failure rates are known to be highly correlated with drive models, manufacturers, and age. However, when they normalized the SMART data by the drive model, none of the conclusions changed.\&#8221;</p>
<p>Sooo &#8211;  now list the manufactures that had high failures and complete the information delivery for the article.  This would be important since the SMART parameters themselves have been determined (by Google) to be useless!</p>
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		<title>By: laytonjb</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8292</link>
		<dc:creator>laytonjb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8292</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@laray,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Good never mentions that drive manufacturers. Their article also points out that in general failure rates follow drive batches. But tracking a batch and testing can be very difficult (if not impossible).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I also wouldn\&#039;t say that google determined the SMART parameters are useless. Rather the SMART parameters by themselves cannot be reliably used to predict _all_ drive failures. They can capture some some drive failures but you need to use some heuristics to use the parameters for making predictions. Even if you use all of the heuristics and other metrics that Google used, they still couldn\&#039;t predict all of the drive failures (or close to them).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Please read the Google paper for more details. It\&#039;s a very very interesting and useful paper.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Jeff
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@laray,</p>
<p>Good never mentions that drive manufacturers. Their article also points out that in general failure rates follow drive batches. But tracking a batch and testing can be very difficult (if not impossible).</p>
<p>I also wouldn\&#8217;t say that google determined the SMART parameters are useless. Rather the SMART parameters by themselves cannot be reliably used to predict _all_ drive failures. They can capture some some drive failures but you need to use some heuristics to use the parameters for making predictions. Even if you use all of the heuristics and other metrics that Google used, they still couldn\&#8217;t predict all of the drive failures (or close to them).</p>
<p>Please read the Google paper for more details. It\&#8217;s a very very interesting and useful paper.</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: laray</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8293</link>
		<dc:creator>laray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8293</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ummm -  I guess that\&#039;s just semantics on the usefulness of SMART.&lt;br /&gt;
It is interesting that Google dives into great detail about how they collect the SMART information and the robust nature of their data collection mechanisms, but yet one of the simplest data sets to collect would be the manufacturer of the drive.  This is reported by the SMART technology.  If its this information is difficult to obtain or almost impossible, then how can they make the statement that failures do correlate to manufactures in the first place? I have ideas on why Google decided not to report this critical piece of information.&lt;br /&gt;
Since you have reported this story, please follow up with Google and let us know either why Google did not report this critical and important information or what manufactures had the highest drive failures.   This would certainly help the the IT folks, like me, and provide an incentive for drive manufactures to improve their products.
&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ummm &#8211;  I guess that\&#8217;s just semantics on the usefulness of SMART.<br />
It is interesting that Google dives into great detail about how they collect the SMART information and the robust nature of their data collection mechanisms, but yet one of the simplest data sets to collect would be the manufacturer of the drive.  This is reported by the SMART technology.  If its this information is difficult to obtain or almost impossible, then how can they make the statement that failures do correlate to manufactures in the first place? I have ideas on why Google decided not to report this critical piece of information.<br />
Since you have reported this story, please follow up with Google and let us know either why Google did not report this critical and important information or what manufactures had the highest drive failures.   This would certainly help the the IT folks, like me, and provide an incentive for drive manufactures to improve their products.</p>
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		<title>By: ixalmida</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8294</link>
		<dc:creator>ixalmida</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8294</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The problem I have with SMART technology is that it is a one-way street.  Once a drive has been flagged as \&quot;failing\&quot;, you cannot un-flag it (at least not legally - and if you could un-flag it, it would just get flagged again as soon as performance fell out of spec again).  I have had drives that work perfectly fine for years after being flagged by SMART.  The fact that SMART tests aren\&#039;t a 99.9% accurate predictor of failure is enough that permanently flagging a drive as \&quot;failed\&quot; becomes a very bad idea.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The argument on the drive manufacturer side is that if that drive was to be resold, the potential buyer should have some warning that a problem is imminent.  But if we applied the same logic to cars, there wouldn\&#039;t be enough room in all the landfills on the planet to dispose of all the unsellable cars flagged as \&quot;failed\&quot; just because they have some minor mechanical issue.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem I have with SMART technology is that it is a one-way street.  Once a drive has been flagged as \&#8221;failing\&#8221;, you cannot un-flag it (at least not legally &#8211; and if you could un-flag it, it would just get flagged again as soon as performance fell out of spec again).  I have had drives that work perfectly fine for years after being flagged by SMART.  The fact that SMART tests aren\&#8217;t a 99.9% accurate predictor of failure is enough that permanently flagging a drive as \&#8221;failed\&#8221; becomes a very bad idea.</p>
<p>The argument on the drive manufacturer side is that if that drive was to be resold, the potential buyer should have some warning that a problem is imminent.  But if we applied the same logic to cars, there wouldn\&#8217;t be enough room in all the landfills on the planet to dispose of all the unsellable cars flagged as \&#8221;failed\&#8221; just because they have some minor mechanical issue.</p>
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		<title>By: neilh</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8295</link>
		<dc:creator>neilh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8295</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Jeff,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Would that section title be from \&quot;Brain and brain, what is brain\&quot;  ST:TOS \&quot;Spock\&#039;s Brain\&quot;
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>Would that section title be from \&#8221;Brain and brain, what is brain\&#8221;  ST:TOS \&#8221;Spock\&#8217;s Brain\&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: nrarnot</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8296</link>
		<dc:creator>nrarnot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8296</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Laray - \&quot;so now list the manufacturers that had high failures\&quot;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Far too simplistic. It may be one particular model that\&#039;s a lemon. It\&#039;s probable that this didn\&#039;t become apparent until after the manufacturer had stopped selling it (i.e., it\&#039;s obsolescent). Or it may be a manufacturer who has fallen foul of a batch of dud components that could have been sold to anyone. Many other possibles.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The fact is, every new drive on the market is in many senses a prototype. By the time it\&#039;s been in service for long enough to prove reliable, it\&#039;s also obsolescent. The manufacturers do accellerated ageing tests, but these are a poor approximation to the passage of years of real time.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The moral - if you construct RAID arrays out of disks with near-consecutive serial numbers, you maximise your chances of a multi-drive failure! To eliminate several common-mode failures, build an array out of (say) one WD, one Seagate and one Hitachi disk. For a bigger array if you run out of manufacturers you can use different sizes or series from the same manufacturer. It may even reduce the risk to buy the same drive from two different suppliers - the serial numbers are less likely to be near-consecutive, you may dodge a batch problem that way.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Other morals - if a drive in a RAID array fails assume it\&#039;s a pointer to another being about to go the same way! And with drives as cheap as they are, consider RAID-6 rather than RAID-5, just in case.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laray &#8211; \&#8221;so now list the manufacturers that had high failures\&#8221;.</p>
<p>Far too simplistic. It may be one particular model that\&#8217;s a lemon. It\&#8217;s probable that this didn\&#8217;t become apparent until after the manufacturer had stopped selling it (i.e., it\&#8217;s obsolescent). Or it may be a manufacturer who has fallen foul of a batch of dud components that could have been sold to anyone. Many other possibles.</p>
<p>The fact is, every new drive on the market is in many senses a prototype. By the time it\&#8217;s been in service for long enough to prove reliable, it\&#8217;s also obsolescent. The manufacturers do accellerated ageing tests, but these are a poor approximation to the passage of years of real time.</p>
<p>The moral &#8211; if you construct RAID arrays out of disks with near-consecutive serial numbers, you maximise your chances of a multi-drive failure! To eliminate several common-mode failures, build an array out of (say) one WD, one Seagate and one Hitachi disk. For a bigger array if you run out of manufacturers you can use different sizes or series from the same manufacturer. It may even reduce the risk to buy the same drive from two different suppliers &#8211; the serial numbers are less likely to be near-consecutive, you may dodge a batch problem that way.</p>
<p>Other morals &#8211; if a drive in a RAID array fails assume it\&#8217;s a pointer to another being about to go the same way! And with drives as cheap as they are, consider RAID-6 rather than RAID-5, just in case.</p>
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		<title>By: klemmerj</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8297</link>
		<dc:creator>klemmerj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8297</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Heh, I\&#039;m loving the \&quot;Spock\&#039;s Brain\&quot; reference.
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh, I\&#8217;m loving the \&#8221;Spock\&#8217;s Brain\&#8221; reference.</p>
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		<title>By: laytonjb</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8298</link>
		<dc:creator>laytonjb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8298</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@klemmerj,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner. I love the line from the Spock\&#039;s Brain episode where they are questioning the woman and she yells,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;\&quot;Brain and Brain, what is Brain?!!\&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I just think it\&#039;s such a great line to use here and there.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thanks!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Jeff
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@klemmerj,</p>
<p>Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner. I love the line from the Spock\&#8217;s Brain episode where they are questioning the woman and she yells,</p>
<p>\&#8221;Brain and Brain, what is Brain?!!\&#8221;</p>
<p>I just think it\&#8217;s such a great line to use here and there.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: wwlytton</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8299</link>
		<dc:creator>wwlytton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7763/#comment-8299</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Warning sales pitch: Please see my book \&quot;From Computer to Brain\&quot; where I use this timeless quote as follows:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
The brain has long been mysterious in this way.  It was purchased&lt;br /&gt;
from an outside vendor.  It fits neatly into a slot at the top of&lt;br /&gt;
the case.  It picks up signals from the rest of the system and&lt;br /&gt;
provides output signals that are used to navigate and maneuver the&lt;br /&gt;
entire device.  In a classic &lt;code&gt;&lt;/code&gt;Star Trek\&#039;\&#039; episode, a nasty alien&lt;br /&gt;
stole Spock\&#039;s brain and plugged it into a central control station so that it would run the air conditioning or something.  Complex plot&lt;br /&gt;
twists led to the immortal line: &lt;code&gt;&lt;/code&gt;Brain, brain ... what is brain?\&#039;\&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/em&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warning sales pitch: Please see my book \&#8221;From Computer to Brain\&#8221; where I use this timeless quote as follows:</p>
<p><em><br />
The brain has long been mysterious in this way.  It was purchased<br />
from an outside vendor.  It fits neatly into a slot at the top of<br />
the case.  It picks up signals from the rest of the system and<br />
provides output signals that are used to navigate and maneuver the<br />
entire device.  In a classic <code></code>Star Trek\&#8217;\&#8217; episode, a nasty alien<br />
stole Spock\&#8217;s brain and plugged it into a central control station so that it would run the air conditioning or something.  Complex plot<br />
twists led to the immortal line: <code></code>Brain, brain &#8230; what is brain?\&#8217;\&#8217;<br />
</em></p>
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