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	<title>Comments on: Red Hat and the Kernel Kerfluffle</title>
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	<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/</link>
	<description>Open Source, Open Standards</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 05 Oct 2013 13:48:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: prashant kadhao</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-1178029</link>
		<dc:creator>prashant kadhao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Sep 2013 03:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-1178029</guid>
		<description>it is very good site</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it is very good site</p>
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		<title>By: josedavidforero</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9500</link>
		<dc:creator>josedavidforero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 21:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9500</guid>
		<description>RedHat is doing well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RedHat is doing well.</p>
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		<title>By: ggmathew</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9319</link>
		<dc:creator>ggmathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2011 02:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9319</guid>
		<description>Yes, many organizations including government agencies have chosen CentOS as their choice of Operating System in the past few years.  CentOS has lot of community support and its getting popular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, many organizations including government agencies have chosen CentOS as their choice of Operating System in the past few years.  CentOS has lot of community support and its getting popular.</p>
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		<title>By: solanum</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9289</link>
		<dc:creator>solanum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2011 13:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9289</guid>
		<description>We use Centos, Redhat, Suse/OpenSuse, and Ubuntu, depending on the server/service(PITA only try it at home..). I&#039;m not upset about it given RedHat is the biggest company that contributes to the kernel, IBM is right behind according to a study released and I think mentioned on this website. They are making the patches upstream, and they are fixing things to other projects as well. 

Most distros use a newer kernel, and it is understandable in some respects how much backporting they do as they don&#039;t want to break any installations with patches. 

I don&#039;t know how many changes Suse/Novell are making especially upstream. Apparently not the kernel, but they maybe making changes to other associated projects. I have seen Suse&#039;s work pre-novell days, make it upstream. I haven&#039;t seen much lately, but I may not be aware of it. 

It would be nice if people jumped on companies like NVidia for their Tegra support. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We use Centos, Redhat, Suse/OpenSuse, and Ubuntu, depending on the server/service(PITA only try it at home..). I&#8217;m not upset about it given RedHat is the biggest company that contributes to the kernel, IBM is right behind according to a study released and I think mentioned on this website. They are making the patches upstream, and they are fixing things to other projects as well. </p>
<p>Most distros use a newer kernel, and it is understandable in some respects how much backporting they do as they don&#8217;t want to break any installations with patches. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how many changes Suse/Novell are making especially upstream. Apparently not the kernel, but they maybe making changes to other associated projects. I have seen Suse&#8217;s work pre-novell days, make it upstream. I haven&#8217;t seen much lately, but I may not be aware of it. </p>
<p>It would be nice if people jumped on companies like NVidia for their Tegra support. :)</p>
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		<title>By: sifusam</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9271</link>
		<dc:creator>sifusam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 04:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9271</guid>
		<description>Didn&#039;t you test before deployment?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t you test before deployment?</p>
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		<title>By: unclesmrgol</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9250</link>
		<dc:creator>unclesmrgol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 02:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9250</guid>
		<description>Wrong.  The GPL V2 (which is the Linux kernel license) requires Red Hat to provide their source code changes as well as the base sources to all comers who request it, for no more than the cost needed to duplicate the media.  In today&#039;s world of internet connectivity, that&#039;s &quot;free&quot;.

Red Hat, to my knowledge, is meeting the letter of the GPL V2 license by providing the full source of their kernel.  What they aren&#039;t doing is providing the individual patch files, so a competitor can no longer pick and choose from amongst Red Hat&#039;s patches the ones which are most appropriate for THEIR kernel.

That will not affect CENTOS nor Scientific, because both build their binaries from the &quot;upstream vendor&quot;s sources, which means that they could care less the provenance of an individual patch.

That said, there is something strange about RHEL6 for CENTOS and Scientific, because it&#039;s taken both much longer to release their 6.0 distros (Scientific has finally released 6.0, but CENTOS is still working on it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wrong.  The GPL V2 (which is the Linux kernel license) requires Red Hat to provide their source code changes as well as the base sources to all comers who request it, for no more than the cost needed to duplicate the media.  In today&#8217;s world of internet connectivity, that&#8217;s &#8220;free&#8221;.</p>
<p>Red Hat, to my knowledge, is meeting the letter of the GPL V2 license by providing the full source of their kernel.  What they aren&#8217;t doing is providing the individual patch files, so a competitor can no longer pick and choose from amongst Red Hat&#8217;s patches the ones which are most appropriate for THEIR kernel.</p>
<p>That will not affect CENTOS nor Scientific, because both build their binaries from the &#8220;upstream vendor&#8221;s sources, which means that they could care less the provenance of an individual patch.</p>
<p>That said, there is something strange about RHEL6 for CENTOS and Scientific, because it&#8217;s taken both much longer to release their 6.0 distros (Scientific has finally released 6.0, but CENTOS is still working on it).</p>
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		<title>By: wongbater</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9234</link>
		<dc:creator>wongbater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Mar 2011 02:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9234</guid>
		<description>Novell came to our company and offered licenses at half the cost of RHEL and 3 yrs support. They claimed to support RHEL &quot;better than Redhat&quot;. We took the bait... We setup an SMT server (same thing as RHEL sattelite) and pointed all our RHEL boxes to pull redhat updates from Novells site. They were repackaging everything including the kernel as kernel.nvX.rpm instead of kernel.elX.rpm. It broke so many things. It was an unbelievably BAD experience and the worst decision we ever made. I dont want to go into detail it would require 10 pages. Since then we have switched back to Redhat. So the short story is they ABSOLUTELY try to take away Redhat customers by offering to support Redhat servers and cheaper licensing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Novell came to our company and offered licenses at half the cost of RHEL and 3 yrs support. They claimed to support RHEL &#8220;better than Redhat&#8221;. We took the bait&#8230; We setup an SMT server (same thing as RHEL sattelite) and pointed all our RHEL boxes to pull redhat updates from Novells site. They were repackaging everything including the kernel as kernel.nvX.rpm instead of kernel.elX.rpm. It broke so many things. It was an unbelievably BAD experience and the worst decision we ever made. I dont want to go into detail it would require 10 pages. Since then we have switched back to Redhat. So the short story is they ABSOLUTELY try to take away Redhat customers by offering to support Redhat servers and cheaper licensing.</p>
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		<title>By: jgriffith</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9219</link>
		<dc:creator>jgriffith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Mar 2011 15:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9219</guid>
		<description>No brick wall in my opinion...  When we start falling into a &quot;copy others work&quot; model to create a competing product we all suffer.  What a great concept though from an execs perspective (ie Ellison/Hurd):  &quot;Hey... we&#039;ll let Redhat make all the investment in the kernel and do the heavy lifting, then we&#039;ll re-package it, focus on our interfaces and sell it cheaper&quot;.  I don&#039;t think that&#039;s the spirit of GPL or Open Source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No brick wall in my opinion&#8230;  When we start falling into a &#8220;copy others work&#8221; model to create a competing product we all suffer.  What a great concept though from an execs perspective (ie Ellison/Hurd):  &#8220;Hey&#8230; we&#8217;ll let Redhat make all the investment in the kernel and do the heavy lifting, then we&#8217;ll re-package it, focus on our interfaces and sell it cheaper&#8221;.  I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the spirit of GPL or Open Source.</p>
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		<title>By: Lori Kaufman</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9213</link>
		<dc:creator>Lori Kaufman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9213</guid>
		<description>I had heard of the term as &quot;kerfuffle,&quot; but it seems it can be spelled either way. &quot;Kerfluffle&quot; is listed as an alternative spelling for &quot;kerfuffle.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had heard of the term as &#8220;kerfuffle,&#8221; but it seems it can be spelled either way. &#8220;Kerfluffle&#8221; is listed as an alternative spelling for &#8220;kerfuffle.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Brockmeier</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9209</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Brockmeier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9209</guid>
		<description>And which subscription are you buying? Perhaps I missed a reasonably priced personal subscription? I&#039;ve seen an educational subscription which would be reasonable for home users, but the bare-minimum regular subscription is a bit pricey for home use at &gt;$300 per year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And which subscription are you buying? Perhaps I missed a reasonably priced personal subscription? I&#8217;ve seen an educational subscription which would be reasonable for home users, but the bare-minimum regular subscription is a bit pricey for home use at >$300 per year.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Brockmeier</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9208</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Brockmeier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9208</guid>
		<description>@Van

Please see: &lt;a href=&quot;http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kerfluffle&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;kerfluffle&lt;/a&gt;. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Van</p>
<p>Please see: <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kerfluffle" rel="nofollow">kerfluffle</a>. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: katsnelson</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9205</link>
		<dc:creator>katsnelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9205</guid>
		<description>I wonder if there is an impact if any on the Amazon Linux AMI http://aws.amazon.com/amazon-linux-ami/ ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if there is an impact if any on the Amazon Linux AMI <a href="http://aws.amazon.com/amazon-linux-ami/" rel="nofollow">http://aws.amazon.com/amazon-linux-ami/</a> ?</p>
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		<title>By: John Natschev</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9202</link>
		<dc:creator>John Natschev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Mar 2011 04:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9202</guid>
		<description>I personally have a RHEL subscription and I don&#039;t even use RHEL at home. Instead I use Fedora. The reason I have the RHEL subscription is to keep up-to-date with RHEL. So, my advice is buy a subscription.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally have a RHEL subscription and I don&#8217;t even use RHEL at home. Instead I use Fedora. The reason I have the RHEL subscription is to keep up-to-date with RHEL. So, my advice is buy a subscription.</p>
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		<title>By: samnjugu</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9199</link>
		<dc:creator>samnjugu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9199</guid>
		<description>I use CentOS and on their mailing list they have said that this change will not impact the regular CentOS since it maintains binary compatibility with RHEL. Only an extra delay in shipping out the CentOS-Plus kernel which has extra stuff that is not shipped by the regular RHEL kernel, but even that will not be severely impacted by Red Hats change.
  I support Red Hat with this move it shameful for companies like Oracle with deep enough pockets to go after Red Hats clients instead of working on their own distribution when they can afford to, and NOVELL is not silent either offering do support Red Hats product why not support MS customers as they already have an agreement with MS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I use CentOS and on their mailing list they have said that this change will not impact the regular CentOS since it maintains binary compatibility with RHEL. Only an extra delay in shipping out the CentOS-Plus kernel which has extra stuff that is not shipped by the regular RHEL kernel, but even that will not be severely impacted by Red Hats change.<br />
  I support Red Hat with this move it shameful for companies like Oracle with deep enough pockets to go after Red Hats clients instead of working on their own distribution when they can afford to, and NOVELL is not silent either offering do support Red Hats product why not support MS customers as they already have an agreement with MS.</p>
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		<title>By: vanhorn</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9198</link>
		<dc:creator>vanhorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9198</guid>
		<description>Does RedHat not submit their kernel developments to the kernel development team? It seems to me that this is just a matter that RedHat&#039;s exact kernel as shipped for any specific release version is based on the main Linux kernel, as is everyone else&#039;s, and will continue to be; it&#039;s just not necessarily the same configuration as other vendors might choose.

Does this mean that CentOS will no longer be able to distribute future versions? That would be unfortunate, at least for me, but the story doesn&#039;t address the point.

Yes, it&#039;s a kerfuffle, a big ado over damned little. I&#039;d say the author missed the point. And the editor should have caught the spelling error in the headline, there&#039;s only one &quot;L&quot; in kerfuffle.

Van</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does RedHat not submit their kernel developments to the kernel development team? It seems to me that this is just a matter that RedHat&#8217;s exact kernel as shipped for any specific release version is based on the main Linux kernel, as is everyone else&#8217;s, and will continue to be; it&#8217;s just not necessarily the same configuration as other vendors might choose.</p>
<p>Does this mean that CentOS will no longer be able to distribute future versions? That would be unfortunate, at least for me, but the story doesn&#8217;t address the point.</p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s a kerfuffle, a big ado over damned little. I&#8217;d say the author missed the point. And the editor should have caught the spelling error in the headline, there&#8217;s only one &#8220;L&#8221; in kerfuffle.</p>
<p>Van</p>
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		<title>By: korin43</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9197</link>
		<dc:creator>korin43</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9197</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see how this goes against the philosophy of the GPL. The GPL isn&#039;t about giving everything away for free, it&#039;s about not giving people a program without the source code. Red Hat&#039;s customers still have access to everything they had before (including the individual patches). What they&#039;re not doing anymore is giving them to everyone. From a GPL perspective, releasing their monster patches to everyone is &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; than they need to do (since their compiled kernel is only available to subscribers, they only need to give patches to their subscribers).

Maybe a better argument would be that this isn&#039;t in the spirit of Linux kernel development, but Red Hat does send its changes upstream; these patches are just backports of those. So, they&#039;re still supporting Linux kernel development, they&#039;re just not helping everyone else support old kernel releases. Other people are benefiting from their changes, they just don&#039;t get them as fast as Red Hat customers, which makes perfect sense -- that&#039;s what they&#039;re paying for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see how this goes against the philosophy of the GPL. The GPL isn&#8217;t about giving everything away for free, it&#8217;s about not giving people a program without the source code. Red Hat&#8217;s customers still have access to everything they had before (including the individual patches). What they&#8217;re not doing anymore is giving them to everyone. From a GPL perspective, releasing their monster patches to everyone is <i>more</i> than they need to do (since their compiled kernel is only available to subscribers, they only need to give patches to their subscribers).</p>
<p>Maybe a better argument would be that this isn&#8217;t in the spirit of Linux kernel development, but Red Hat does send its changes upstream; these patches are just backports of those. So, they&#8217;re still supporting Linux kernel development, they&#8217;re just not helping everyone else support old kernel releases. Other people are benefiting from their changes, they just don&#8217;t get them as fast as Red Hat customers, which makes perfect sense &#8212; that&#8217;s what they&#8217;re paying for.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunkah</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9196</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunkah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9196</guid>
		<description>I agree fully with this!  For anyone to complain about what Red Hat is doing is almost blasphemy!  If you look at contributions over they lifespan of Linux, you will see that Red Hat is always the top contributor, usually almost at around 30%-50% of the overall contributions.  I would say that if Linus Torvalds were a company it would be called Red Hat.  Red Hat is the other carrier of everything that Linux has become.

Companies like Oracle, Novell and Canonical SHOULD be contributing to the betterment of Linux as well, not just their own respective companies.  Red Hat does this more than anyone, and now that they are protecting themselves from the leaches, people are crapping on them.  I understand it is common practice to do this, most projects are completed by a couple of people and everyone else gets the credit.  Imagine how amazing Linux would be now if the companies that use Linux helped in building a better machine, rather then just painting over what everyone else built!  Red Hat builds the machine and we all benefit from their work.  Everyone else just paints over the Red Hat logo and calls it their own.

I think it&#039;s time that these other companies are held more accountable for their upstream efforts.  Part of the beauty of Open Source is that you are allowed to do this, it doesn&#039;t make it morally right though!  If you make money from something, it only makes sense to help build it.  You will end up making more money the more people use it.

I know everything I&#039;m saying will probably hit a brick wall, but I&#039;m still saying it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree fully with this!  For anyone to complain about what Red Hat is doing is almost blasphemy!  If you look at contributions over they lifespan of Linux, you will see that Red Hat is always the top contributor, usually almost at around 30%-50% of the overall contributions.  I would say that if Linus Torvalds were a company it would be called Red Hat.  Red Hat is the other carrier of everything that Linux has become.</p>
<p>Companies like Oracle, Novell and Canonical SHOULD be contributing to the betterment of Linux as well, not just their own respective companies.  Red Hat does this more than anyone, and now that they are protecting themselves from the leaches, people are crapping on them.  I understand it is common practice to do this, most projects are completed by a couple of people and everyone else gets the credit.  Imagine how amazing Linux would be now if the companies that use Linux helped in building a better machine, rather then just painting over what everyone else built!  Red Hat builds the machine and we all benefit from their work.  Everyone else just paints over the Red Hat logo and calls it their own.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s time that these other companies are held more accountable for their upstream efforts.  Part of the beauty of Open Source is that you are allowed to do this, it doesn&#8217;t make it morally right though!  If you make money from something, it only makes sense to help build it.  You will end up making more money the more people use it.</p>
<p>I know everything I&#8217;m saying will probably hit a brick wall, but I&#8217;m still saying it.</p>
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		<title>By: richard_bent</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9195</link>
		<dc:creator>richard_bent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9195</guid>
		<description>If you look at this from a long-term perspective, this is the inevitable evolutionary fragmentation that comes about from competitive forces.  It&#039;s very true that this is now localized to something Red Hat is doing, but the claimed necessity to make life harder for independent developers as a result of competitor&#039;s actions I think skirts the underlying philosophy of the GPL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you look at this from a long-term perspective, this is the inevitable evolutionary fragmentation that comes about from competitive forces.  It&#8217;s very true that this is now localized to something Red Hat is doing, but the claimed necessity to make life harder for independent developers as a result of competitor&#8217;s actions I think skirts the underlying philosophy of the GPL.</p>
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		<title>By: cjcox</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9194</link>
		<dc:creator>cjcox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9194</guid>
		<description>I guess I have a question for Joe specifically.... since he might have more insight into the amount of kernel copying that Novell did.  This article, and many others on this subject say that one reason that Red Hat did this was to prevent (specifically) Novell from using Red Hat patches in their SLES.  Is this REALLY true?  I mean, RHEL and SLES have never really sync&#039;d well with regards to kernel versions on their releases.  In fact, you might even be able to argue that it would be harder to use a Red Hat patch on a kernel version that was significantly different (might actually require MORE work).  So... just curious...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I have a question for Joe specifically&#8230;. since he might have more insight into the amount of kernel copying that Novell did.  This article, and many others on this subject say that one reason that Red Hat did this was to prevent (specifically) Novell from using Red Hat patches in their SLES.  Is this REALLY true?  I mean, RHEL and SLES have never really sync&#8217;d well with regards to kernel versions on their releases.  In fact, you might even be able to argue that it would be harder to use a Red Hat patch on a kernel version that was significantly different (might actually require MORE work).  So&#8230; just curious&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: arenalgarden</title>
		<link>http://www.linux-mag.com/id/8414/#comment-9193</link>
		<dc:creator>arenalgarden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.linux-mag.com/?p=8414#comment-9193</guid>
		<description>Friends don&#039;t let friends use Red Hat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Friends don&#8217;t let friends use Red Hat.</p>
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